3 Challenges of Employee Advocacy in Law Firms [Podcast]

[Episode Thirty-Eight of ‘The Employee Advocacy and Influence Podcast] 🎧

In this special workshop-style episode, Lewis invites special guest Shannon Loveridge to lend her insights on the law and legal industry and why employee advocacy is a crucial tool that should be utilized in this industry. Shannon highlights the challenges that come with employee advocacy in law firms and how to overcome them. 

Organizations all over the world in every sector are driving strategic competitive advantage by scaling the impact of their employees’ voices… and now YOU can too! As we delve beyond the why and get straight to the how so that you can put employee-driven growth at the heart of your organization.

Welcome to the new and improved version of The Employee Advocacy and Influence Podcast. In this new format, CEO Bradley Keenan is joined by DSMN8’s very own Lewis Gray (Senior Marketing Manager) as a co-host.

[Transcript]

LG: Hello and welcome to the Employee Advocacy and Influence Podcast. My name’s Lewis Gray, and today we’re gonna be doing something slightly different from usual. So if you’ve watched the podcast in the past or if you’ve listened to the podcast, you’ll know that generally speaking, it’s myself and DSMN8 CEO Bradley Keenan who host the show.

Today we wanted to do something a little bit different because we had an idea for an episode that actually came from conversations that our customer success teams were having with our clients who are either law firms or work in the legal sector, and also conversations that our sales teams were having with law firms who were trying to implement employee advocacy programs.

And what we were hearing from both sides was that the challenges that law firms face when they’re trying to launch an employee advocacy program are very much unique to their industry.

So with any kind of new initiative, but with employee advocacy especially, there’s gonna be challenges that you have to overcome, but if you set up correctly and you get things right from day one, generally speaking, all challenges are minor, and you can, you can overcome them with ease.

But because these were so niche to the legal sector, we thought, what better timing? Because within the past couple of months, we actually hired the amazing Shannon Loveridge, who joins us today and who I’ll introduce in just a second, but she actually specializes in the legal sector. With that said, Shannon, I’ll hand you the reins so that you can introduce yourself.

SL: Thank you for that very good introduction. So yeah, to introduce myself, my name is Shannon Loveridge.

I’ve recently joined the DSMN8 team within the last month, and I work as a business development representative in the commercial team. I have a couple of years of work experience working within the legal sector and with law firms. I’ve also just completed my master’s of law too. So now, at DSMN8, my role is to help law firms maximize their digital marketing strategy through the use of employee advocacy.

LG: Amazing, very exciting stuff. Okay, cool, so with that said, today’s episode is gonna focus on the three biggest challenges that law firms might face when launching an employee advocacy program and how to overcome them. So with all of that said, let’s get into it.

So for the first part of this episode, I wanted to almost go through the history of technological adoption within law firms and within companies in regulated industries in general, because historically, law firms and all companies within regulated industries have been, and maybe this is a generalization, but they’ve been notoriously slow at moving forward and adopting new technologies, and they tend to only make transformations when they absolutely have to.

So in my mind and from conversations I’ve had, this is because companies operating in these industries know that there’s a large number of hoops to jump through before you can get anything signed off or implemented.

It obviously makes total sense, and it comes with the industry and comes with the territory, but more recently, there seems to have been a shift in this attitude. So, Shannon, I was hoping you could shed some light on, you know, where this change in attitude might have come from and why this might be.

SL: Sure, so as we know, law firms were typically very hesitant to adopt technology because lawyers are very risk-averse. Recently, we’ve seen that although some of this hesitancy still remains, that law firms are much more open to digital transformation than they used to be.

And I think the main reason for this is because the cost of not adopting and adapting to this new trend is too great for them. So law firms are a business. So by embracing technology, the firms becoming more profitable and more competitive in their market. So technology offers the potential to streamline certain processes, automate repetitive tasks and improve overall efficiency.

And by doing this, law firms are increasing their output and therefore being more productive and more profitable. With the increasing pressure, too, from clients, law firms feel that they need to be more cost-effective, and they’ve recognized the advantages of adopting technology to enhance this productivity and ultimately give better client service.

Clients, too, have also become more tech-savvy. So the legal industry is purely reacting to what their clients want. So now, the clients expect law firms to leverage technology, be faster, more transparent, and offer more cost-effective legal services. Law firms also recognize that adopting technology can provide a general competitive edge too, so implementing innovative solutions so that a law firm can help differentiate them in the market, attract new clients and retain existing ones. Law firms are increasingly realizing that technology adoption is a matter of necessity and also a strategic advantage. So I think they’re the main points.

LG: Yeah, for sure, and there’s some, some ones that are very much new to me in there as well. I think the one that kind of rings true the most to me is the consumer demand or the customer demand in this regard because I get so frustrated when I’m, if it’s somebody that I’m doing business with, or whether I’m just purchasing something when the technology is so far behind what it could be. I really wish I had an example to hand because it was something I was doing recently. I was filling in a survey for something. And it was just made so complicated. And I just thought I know just as a marketer what technology is out there for this kind of job. And to see it done so poorly is so frustrating. So I can absolutely understand the consumer or the customer demand aspect.

SL: Mm.

LG: Do you think that’s happened more within recent years as a result of, you know, COVID and lockdowns and that kind of thing?

SL: Yeah, COVID definitely had an impact for something like document review or DocuSign. Previously, certain contracts couldn’t be signed online, but now they can be signed online from anywhere in the world. So when lawyers couldn’t travel to meet their clients in other jurisdictions because of the lockdowns, there was an increased uptake, demand and use of technology that ultimately makes things much more efficient, and now lockdown’s over, lawyers could still travel to their clients and very often do, but they’ve realized that some of these technologies are here to stay because they actually do make processes much more efficient and streamline things. So it’s had quite a permanent effect. So yeah.

LG: Yeah, definitely. I think it’s almost forced their hand, doesn’t it? It’s like during lockdown. It was either you adapt, or you’re not gonna be able to do business. Like you said, I didn’t realize that everything had to be in person pre-digital transformation within the legal sector.

But yeah, I guess it’s kind of forced their hand. It’s like if you’re not gonna do these things, then as a business, you’re not gonna make any money. You’re not gonna be able to thrive. So I’m curious to know. I don’t suppose you know why DocuSign wasn’t accepted before. Was it just like tradition, or was it a reluctance to pick up a new technology, like security risk kind of thing?

SL: I think it’s because certain contracts can’t actually be legally binding if they’re not signed. So it wasn’t a form of accepted way to sign a contract. So you had to physically sign. So certain things still do need to be signed in wet ink. I think maybe deeds and things. Certain contracts need to be signed in ink.

LG: Yeah.

SL: If they were signed online, they weren’t actually valid. Nothing you know they weren’t actually they couldn’t be used so with the creation of DocuSign now they can do it online.

LG: Now they can get it done. I’ve always seen DocuSign as gospel. You know I sign everything with DocuSign now. When we hire new employees, everything’s over DocuSign. It’s very rare that we actually put pen to paper. But again, that’s because, you know, when we think about the legal sector, it’s so niche, and the challenges that they face are so specific to that industry.

SL: Mm-hmm.

LG: I guess bringing it back to social media and employee advocacy. Where do you think, I mean, I’ve seen this from the legal sector, the grow in demand, but where do you think the new demand for social media usage and employee advocacy has come from? And am I even right in saying that, that it’s kind of, you know, increase in demand has surged?

SL: It definitely has. I think it comes from, again, evolving client expectations. Most people are on social media, and typically before you do business with anyone or go to a restaurant or do anything, you’ll normally look them up on social media to see what their you know their profile is or what social proof they have, their reviews, things like that. Now that’s a very common way of deciding whether you want to hire someone. Maybe you’ll check out their LinkedIn profile. So it works both ways, also law firms have also realized the business development opportunities that come from social media.

So being able to strategically leverage social media, they can advertise them and present themselves as thought leaders and industry experts to their target audience. And also as well for recruitment and talent acquisition purposes, Typically, when a law firm will hire someone, they can hire someone from as young as 18, 19. So that generation are definitely gonna be on social media.

So they realize by being on social media, like LinkedIn and advertising their jobs on LinkedIn and having a really active company page, that’s what potential candidates who they’re targeting are going to be looking at, and they’re gonna be looking at the firm, and the online reputation that it has and trying to figure out the culture before they apply. So I think it’s come again, yeah, from clients, customers, potential candidates, and the business opportunity.

LG: Interesting, yeah, definitely. I think it’s interesting what you were saying about, you know when no matter what you’re doing, if you’re paying somebody for their services, you generally speaking will look them up online you’ll just if you were using LinkedIn, but you know, my girlfriend works in music, so for her it’s she’ll check out people’s Instagram pages and stuff like that but for me definitely, like we were recently looking for a graphic designer just for a piece of content we were producing and the first thing I did, obviously I did a bit of independent research, but then I just took straight to LinkedIn, you know, just to see, were these people talking about their work, were they showcasing what they were doing? And the ones who were, even if I didn’t like the work, they would still have, I mean, I’m not a graphic designer, I don’t really have a say in that, but the ones who weren’t were immediately at disadvantage because I then have that thought in the back of my mind, they just don’t care enough to showcase their work and to be active on a professional network.

So. immediately, the people who were posting had an advantage. So I could see how that would work from a legal perspective. Personally, I’ve never had to. Fortunately, I’ve never had to reach out for legal help to date. But again, it would be the first thing that I checked. I’d be, you know, doing some research. I might utilize some, I call it, network influence, but I might reach out to people in my network on LinkedIn for a bit of help. But then again, it’s going to their LinkedIn feeds and just seeing, are they regularly posting what are they talking about?

And again, the ones who are silent, maybe Shannon, you can, you might disagree with this, but the ones who are silent to me seem to be, maybe again, it’s a bit of a generalization, but less, they seem to be less involved in what they’re doing. Do you get the same, or am I running on too much?

SL: No, I totally think that’s true. And I think because it’s now the norm to be on social media and to be active by not being on there, it looks strange. Why wouldn’t they want to? If they really are an amazing firm and amazing company, why wouldn’t they want to promote themselves and showcase all of their best work?

It would make sense that they would just would be proud of themselves and proud of their team, and proud of everything that they’ve achieved that they would want to share that and they would want to. You know, show themselves off in the best light. So by not doing that, it does raise some suspicions of why not.

LG: For sure. And that just comes to. I think that’s it. What you just said is exactly what I was trying to say, but I was just running on and trying to explain it. It’s why not? Why aren’t you showcasing your expertise?

And I think what you said earlier as well is relevant here, which is the emerging workforce, or not even the emerging workforce. Let’s just say that the tech-native workforce are kind of growing up and using social media to check out companies before they apply for jobs.

So again, if you’re looking at a law firm and they’re not posting anything, they don’t seem to have a strong employer brand, there’s no company culture content, in the back of your mind, you’re just gonna be thinking, why not? So I think you’ve summarized it very nicely there.

SL: Yeah, and the legal industry spend more on recruitment than any other sector.

LG: Oh wow.

SL: Because that, yeah, they spend some of the top law firms spend on average of 1 million pounds from first interaction with that potential candidate all the way up to when they qualify. So they invest so much in their trainees. So it’s so important for them to make what is a very, you know, appropriate business decisions. So they want to attract the right people. And they know that by being on social media and being more public with the work that they’re doing, they can access and reach the, you know, the candidates that they want. 

LG: So the next challenge is one that just about all companies that attempt to launch an employee advocacy program have to overcome, but it’s especially prevalent in the legal sector just due to the workload of most employees.

And the challenge is getting company-wide adoption. Now, what I mean by company-wide adoption is if you’re launching and attempting to scale an employee advocacy program, you’ll be using an employee advocacy tool. This will just centralize all of your content and allows you to optimize, scale, and track the success of your program.

But, of course, this becomes something that your lawyers or employees have to start using. So you’re introducing another tool to their tech stack. The feedback that we’ve had from program managers and prospects our sales teams are speaking with is that their colleagues won’t see the point and that they’ll struggle to get them on board with using this tool you know they’ve identified as the right tool for their employee advocacy efforts. So, Shannon, I was hoping you could lend some insight as to why this might be the case and how can these program managers achieve better adoption rates.

SL: Well, I think the main thing for lawyers is time constraints, workload. They have very heavy workloads, tight deadlines, so they may perceive adopting an additional tool into their, and using a new platform into their day as unnecessary, and it’s not a priority to their other, their billable hours, their work that they have to do because that, that’s not billable hour, they’re not meeting their targets for doing something that’s not their work. So I think the way to do this is that the way to overcome this is to highlight the cost-saving aspects of the employee advocacy tool.

So I think it has to be emphasized how streamlining content, simplifying social media management and how it reduces manual efforts. I think it’s one of those things like we mentioned before. If you have a culture in your firm where everybody does post on social media. And the leadership team do it, and you don’t, and you look like the odd one out, then you’re not going to be looking as engaged as other people. And then that will reflect on you.

So your managers might be asking, why aren’t you as active as everybody else? Why aren’t you engaging? And it’s just the personal brand thing. So, people who are active and posting and engaging, they are more engaged with their work. They do have higher productivity rates. And overall you know happiness in their job role. So there are lots of benefits, but I think maybe because they’re not aware of them, they don’t know. So

LG: For sure.

SL: I think the key thing is to make sure that it’s integrated into the training. So when you start a firm that is offered in the onboarding, they do social media onboarding, and they already do that too, because there’s very strict rules around what people can post and what they can’t post for obvious reasons.

So by integrating how they can use the employee advocacy tool to ensure that they are posting the right thing, then that takes that stress off their mind because maybe, for some reason, lawyers at firms don’t want to post because they’re really worried about sharing the wrong thing.

But if they know that there’s a tool out there that can reduce that risk or completely mitigate it, then they’re gonna be more inclined to do it. So, and also as well getting the leadership on board and having that ongoing engagement and just, yeah, just addressing concerns and providing ongoing support and things like that. So if the leaders are doing it and they’re setting the example, then the more junior people, they’ll be on board too, so.

LG: Yeah, definitely. I think that’s the top-down approach is something that we see across the board. I think with when you’re launching any new initiative, really, obviously, influence starts at the top.

So if you have your executives and your senior leaders adopting a tool from day one and they start using it, then obviously it becomes so much harder for anybody else to not use it, to justify not using it even, especially if you’re putting it down to time restraints. Generally speaking, it’s the senior leaders and the executives who are gonna be the most busy employees within your workforce.

So if they’re able to do it, I think the excuse of it being a time-taxing task kind of goes out the window, really. But something you mentioned a moment ago as well about kind of, I guess, it all ties in with communicating the benefits to employees, obviously, if you make it part of onboarding. And it just made me think about a piece of content we produced recently.

We actually did a podcast episode on it as well, which we’ll link to in the show notes, but it was about putting together your ideal advocate profile. And what that meant was it’s essentially like with any,  any great marketing or any sales process, you put together personas, and that’s essentially what this document that we created allows you to do is to identify who you want to invite to your program.

What are their current business objectives? What are their pain points? What kind of content would they be? Would it benefit them to share? And there’s a few other things in there as well, but those just kind of help you realize how to communicate the benefits to your employees. And in this instance, your lawyers, so if you’re saying to them, if you feel like you’re asking them to do something and going above and beyond, you kind of need to make it about them and their business objectives. And doing this just kind of allows you to do that.

SL: Mm-hmm, definitely.

LG: Do you think, Shannon, is there still an attitude within the sector where people see social media as nice to have and not an essential?

SL: So there’s definitely still that attitude. Law firms have existed for hundreds and hundreds of years, and social media is only a relatively new concept. Employee advocacy is an even newer one. If they were able to operate for this long without social media, maybe they think that it’s not necessary to have it because they’re doing fine without it.

However, as the market changes and consumer shifts, client shifts, all of these things happen, and they get more and more, there’s more and more pressure on law firms to do these things. I think that’s when they’ll start realizing that it’s definitely a must-have because, as we said, if they’re not doing it and everybody else is, they’re going to be left out. But yeah, I think there is.

There’s a growing sentiment now that is definitely one of those things that they just have to be on. But one of the things that we see is when we’re speaking to partners, trying to get them on board and convincing them sometimes is quite hard because they’ve been around and they’ve been working in their firm for maybe 30, 40 years, and they’ve never had to use social media before. So not only do they probably don’t know how maybe they don’t know how to use it in a way that would optimize their business goals. And secondly, yeah, like I said, if they were able to operate for so long without doing it, they may not think that they have to do it. 

LG: Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think if you’re, I guess, if you’re an experienced lawyer and you’re at the top of your game, and you’ve been, you know, doing what you do for 30, 40 years, however long, then, you know, I’m not too involved in the industry. But I imagine you get to a point where your reputation kind of precedes you. And maybe then they just think, okay, I don’t need to be active on social media. But I digress.

Shannon, I think we’ve covered quite a few points with this one particular challenge. I’m going to put you on the spot here. I was just wondering, would you be able to summarize the, I think it was four or five things we’ve mentioned there, but could you just summarize those points for how to maximize adoption rates?

SL: Sure. So highlight the time-saving aspects of using an employee advocacy tool. Conduct thorough communication and training sessions. So integrate social media training into the onboarding process so people know what to do from the get-go of joining and have that ongoing engagement and support and also support from senior leadership, get them onboard as well. And also, just have a dedicated support system so if employers do have any questions, then you can address their concerns.

LG: Awesome. Okay, yeah, let’s get on to the next challenge. So for the third challenge or the third part of this episode, I wanted to get into how you can overcome the perceived risk that somebody will say the wrong thing on social media. So this challenge is a big one when it comes to employee advocacy, fears and the perceived risks.

Obviously, in any industry, but with the legal sector especially, you don’t want your employees to say the wrong thing on social media. We hear this quite a lot as an objection to employee advocacy, but this is especially the case within the legal industry, where lawyers are under additional pressure to remain compliant and discreet. So, Shannon, I’m not gonna build on this challenge and this point too much because I feel like it’s clear, but what I want to understand is how can law firms overcome this perceived risk, and can you kind of debunk it a little bit?

SL: So the thing that they can do to mitigate this is to use an employee advocacy tool. So they can have clear social media guidelines so people know what to post. They can have that education around posting and what good practice looks like. There’s normally content approval process anyway.

So law firms and other regulated companies in regulated industries will have a process where they screen, and they check documents and whatever’s going out to be posted to make sure everything is fine. And having that ongoing monitoring in compliance to make sure that there’s monitoring and tools to detect and address any problematic posts that could, you know, harm reputation and things like that.

By using an employee advocacy tool, the law firm would be able to. By using an employee advocacy tool, employees would only be able to post things that were pre-approved by the company. So there would be no fear around posting because everything that’s on the platform has already been approved. And there would be no fear around writing captions and writing original content and things like that because there would be no fear around writing captions and things in response to posts that they see online.

There will be a feature where they will have pre-generated captions by the company and that they would have already chosen for them, and they can just choose which one they want and suits their online profile the most. So it’s very much most, most of it’s already done for them, and they just have to use the, they just have to use the platform. They can auto-schedule posts so things can go out and everything’s already pre-approved, and they’ll have multiple versions of each piece of content. And they just pick the one that they like the most.

LG: Awesome. Yeah. I think that’s a, in my mind, that’s all somebody would need to hear. But I mean to, to give some examples, we obviously, like I said, at the beginning, we have a number of clients that are law firms. And one of the things that we’ve heard from, or at least I got from speaking with the customer success teams, is that we do try to keep it platform agnostic on this podcast, but most employee advocacy tools, or most, most good employee advocacy tools will give you this feature to.

Like Shannon said, pre-write captions that you can offer your employees so that they can use them when sharing. Obviously, it mitigates the risk that they’ll share the wrong thing or say the wrong thing, and you can lock those captions in place too. But what they were doing was essentially, so the content curators, so the people who are writing the captions for their employees to use were taking bits of content that had already been published on the website and using that as the caption because they knew that had already been approved through legal. And was good to share.

SL: Yeah. That’s a good idea. 

LG: it wasn’t that they had to go away and write anything. It was just like, okay, for anybody curating content for employee advocacy, one of the most time-taxing but important parts, so it does play an instrumental role, is writing a good caption. And I think if you’re if you have it in the back of your mind that it’s this difficult thing and you have to be legally compliant, that example to me was just like the perfect workaround. It’s like you’ve got the captions written in your content. You just need to chop it up and make it a bit more social sorry, a bit more suitable for social, but you know it’s, then it’s good to go.

SL: Yeah, and law firms are very actively posting things on their websites. So if you go to law firm’s website, they’ll have blogs, they’ll have articles, they’ll have thought leadership pieces.

They’re always producing content, and there is so much on there. So they don’t necessarily have to even find new content. They just have to go back, and they can link their website to their employee advocacy platform, and then that will feed content through automatically. That’s already been approved, or they can go through and, you know, create something original out of content that’s already been vetted by the legal team. So solves that issue.

LG: For sure. And I think even content segmentation has a role to play here. But I was speaking, so I’m working on a case study with one of our clients at the moment. And they did an exceptional job because they’re such an enormous company. They did such a great job of getting the right content to the right people because they produce so much content in so many different languages.

And for their employee advocacy efforts, they invited employees from all of these different teams across the world. So into the platform, so they had to ensure that what each individual employee was seeing was relevant to them. And they did that by creating groups within the platform that were just so specific, but also it kind of mirrored the business structure.

SL: Mm-hmm.

LG:  So rather than trying to make things over complicated and going for just UK or UK marketing or whatever, they just broke it down. They looked at the business structure and mirrored that and created their grouping like that.

SL: Yeah.

LG: So again, I imagine with the legal sector, that’s just something that will again help mitigate any potential risk is, you know, that if a lawyer is being served a piece of content to share, it’s being curated for them.

It’s not, you know, the CEO could share it and then a, I don’t know, or a partner, sorry, could share it and they could have a. I’m not too familiar with legal job titles here, but somebody more junior could come in and share the same piece of content. It might be a bit odd. Obviously, certain content is relevant to certain people, right?

SL: Yeah.

LG: I guess that helps alleviate risk too.

SL: Yeah, and that mirrors the law firm’s business structure because they’ll have different departments that do different things. So you could be in the IP department, you could be in the tax department, the finance department. And on the law firm’s website, when they release their blogs and their newsfeed about deals that they’ve just completed, you can filter by department and filter by industry and filter by sector. So if you work in a particular sector or you specialize in a particular industry or something like that, then all of the contents already pre-filtered. 

LG: brilliant. So we’ve covered quite a lot in this episode. And obviously, Shannon, with the last point, I asked you to summarize, so I feel like we’ve got a great summary of the points that we’ve been through so far.

I think what it might be useful for you to do, and again, I apologize. I know this is your first podcast, I feel like I’m putting you on the spot here, but would it be possible to kind of go through the three biggest misconceptions and just summarize the three biggest myths, let’s call them actually, and kind of debunk them?

SL: Sure.

Myth one is that using social media compromises client confidentiality. So this is actually not true. It’s a misconception that this jeopardizes client confidentiality because by establishing clear guidelines and educating employees, law firms can regulate what things go on social media and what things don’t. So it’s all in the education and all in the policies that they have. So. like I said, by integrating this with training, onboarding, people know from the get-go what they can post and what they can’t post. So if anything, you’re actually reducing the risk because you’re actually demonstrating to people what can be put online and what can’t be. And if you never teach them and you never have a social media policy in place, then they won’t know, and they’re actually more at risk of posting something, and you know, jeopardizing client confidentiality.

So the second myth is that employee advocacy and using social media creates conflicts of interest. But similar to the first point I made, law firms can mitigate this risk just by implementing a robust conflict-checking procedure. So they scan social media to ensure that all of the interactions that are happening on the happening on there align with the firm’s ethical and legal obligations. So it’s all in the processes and the procedures.

And the final myth is that social media and using social media dilutes professionalism. So I think that social media is wrongly associated with not being professional. Something like LinkedIn was created as a professional networking site. So law firms can main that maintain that profession. Maintain their professionalism by adhering to codes of conduct, promoting thought leadership, engaging in meaningful discussions to showcase their expertise and respect. So it’s all about the way that they use social media. People have private social medias that are used for very different purposes. However, I would argue that the purpose of using LinkedIn and posting content on there is to enhance your professionalism and your personal brand, that will give you kudos in the workplace. So.

LG: Amazing, Yeah, I think I said I put you on the spot because it was your first episode. I think you’ve done an amazing job of summarizing there. We’ll have to get you on more often. So that’s a, I guess I’m a, we do say we keep it platform agnostic. I’m a platform advocate.

I would say, with all the things that Shannon’s brilliantly summarized there, get yourself an employee advocacy tool if you’re going to leverage employee advocacy because it solves all of these problems. But again, platform advocate. Shannon, thank you so much for joining us for today’s episode.

You’ve been an invaluable source of insight. If for anybody listening or watching, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please, it would mean the world if you could leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts or watch them. And if you wanted to connect with myself or Shannon, you can do so on LinkedIn, and we’ll pop the resources that we’ve mentioned below, and there’ll be links to our LinkedIn profiles as well. So. We’ll catch you very soon. Thank you very much for listening.

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